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	<title>Comments on: I&#8217;ve become some kind of a Platonist</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blog.demring.com/2008/05/15/ive-become-some-kind-of-a-platonist/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blog.demring.com/2008/05/15/ive-become-some-kind-of-a-platonist/</link>
	<description>A personal blog, mainly about philosophy</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 23:13:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Gorm</title>
		<link>http://blog.demring.com/2008/05/15/ive-become-some-kind-of-a-platonist/#comment-804</link>
		<dc:creator>Gorm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 18:33:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gorm.wordpress.com/?p=381#comment-804</guid>
		<description>You seem to get the basic picture. Great! We have a lot to talk about now :)

I agree with you, there is no chasm or absolute separation. Its a gradual spectrum from single atoms through molecules, amino acids, cells, to neural networks and finally self-conscious qualia as some kind of emergent property. All things organized has an element of virtuality to it. Patterns that reproduce themselves &lt;em&gt;live&lt;/em&gt; in some sense of that word. Patterns that can model external reality has at least a rudimentary form of &lt;em&gt;subjectivity&lt;/em&gt;. And finally, patterns that can reflect upon patterns (even self-referentially) and manipulate patterns in some kind of a mental workspace -- has, if you don't me using the arcane word for it, a &lt;em&gt;soul&lt;/em&gt;.

I've written a related post that might be of interest to you, where I attempt to give &lt;a href="http://blog.demring.com/2008/01/08/an-exploration-of-physicalism/" rel="nofollow"&gt;a physicalist account of the history of the universe&lt;/a&gt; (which oddly results in kind of undermining physicalism).

I'm looking forward to read more about your theory. I read your post on leaky abstractions, and find this TCP metaphor very interesting, but I hope you'll write up a more detailed post later, because I don't really see the outline of your theory yet. Specifically, I'm interested in why you focus on history (and in what sense), and what properties you believe abstractions can have (the examples you give are abstractions within realism, and with obvious practicality to them, but what are the extremes?).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You seem to get the basic picture. Great! We have a lot to talk about now :)</p>
<p>I agree with you, there is no chasm or absolute separation. Its a gradual spectrum from single atoms through molecules, amino acids, cells, to neural networks and finally self-conscious qualia as some kind of emergent property. All things organized has an element of virtuality to it. Patterns that reproduce themselves <em>live</em> in some sense of that word. Patterns that can model external reality has at least a rudimentary form of <em>subjectivity</em>. And finally, patterns that can reflect upon patterns (even self-referentially) and manipulate patterns in some kind of a mental workspace &#8212; has, if you don&#8217;t me using the arcane word for it, a <em>soul</em>.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve written a related post that might be of interest to you, where I attempt to give <a href="http://blog.demring.com/2008/01/08/an-exploration-of-physicalism/" rel="nofollow">a physicalist account of the history of the universe</a> (which oddly results in kind of undermining physicalism).</p>
<p>I&#8217;m looking forward to read more about your theory. I read your post on leaky abstractions, and find this TCP metaphor very interesting, but I hope you&#8217;ll write up a more detailed post later, because I don&#8217;t really see the outline of your theory yet. Specifically, I&#8217;m interested in why you focus on history (and in what sense), and what properties you believe abstractions can have (the examples you give are abstractions within realism, and with obvious practicality to them, but what are the extremes?).</p>
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		<title>By: Marcio Rocha Pereira</title>
		<link>http://blog.demring.com/2008/05/15/ive-become-some-kind-of-a-platonist/#comment-803</link>
		<dc:creator>Marcio Rocha Pereira</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 16:39:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gorm.wordpress.com/?p=381#comment-803</guid>
		<description>"gradient of realvirtual" was supposed to be rendered with an arrow, something like real↔virtual (will it work this time? ;-), but i guess joined together is OK too...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;gradient of realvirtual&#8221; was supposed to be rendered with an arrow, something like real↔virtual (will it work this time? ;-), but i guess joined together is OK too&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Marcio Rocha Pereira</title>
		<link>http://blog.demring.com/2008/05/15/ive-become-some-kind-of-a-platonist/#comment-802</link>
		<dc:creator>Marcio Rocha Pereira</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 16:35:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gorm.wordpress.com/?p=381#comment-802</guid>
		<description>Damit, man, i see where you're going, but i can't see the chasm between virtuality and reality. Like, virtuality is an outcrop of reality, or can be assumed to be an outcrop of reality. What i mean is, i do not have conscious access to the chemical reactions that happen when the insulin levels on my blood are higher than the glucose ones, i only have access to my hunger, but that doesn't mean they are disconnected. This frontier can be explored further and further (in a devote-your-life-to-true-Yoga sort of way, for example), but i guess what really bakes my noodles is the properties of the outcrop: the properties of virtuality. And i have a feeling (though i might need to work the argument much more to be consistent) that assuming the separation to be complete (instead of a gradient of realvirtual) makes the measurement harder, maybe even impossible. An interesting case to ponder about such issues is something like when you are hungry and you know there's nothing on the fridge but you open it up without thinking about it, well, just in case. Sometimes you will end up opening the fridge over and over again before finally going out and eating that cheeseburger you promised to not eat again. Well, it happens with me. By the way, i have a similar pet-theory, but i call it "The History of Abstraction". See you!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Damit, man, i see where you&#8217;re going, but i can&#8217;t see the chasm between virtuality and reality. Like, virtuality is an outcrop of reality, or can be assumed to be an outcrop of reality. What i mean is, i do not have conscious access to the chemical reactions that happen when the insulin levels on my blood are higher than the glucose ones, i only have access to my hunger, but that doesn&#8217;t mean they are disconnected. This frontier can be explored further and further (in a devote-your-life-to-true-Yoga sort of way, for example), but i guess what really bakes my noodles is the properties of the outcrop: the properties of virtuality. And i have a feeling (though i might need to work the argument much more to be consistent) that assuming the separation to be complete (instead of a gradient of realvirtual) makes the measurement harder, maybe even impossible. An interesting case to ponder about such issues is something like when you are hungry and you know there&#8217;s nothing on the fridge but you open it up without thinking about it, well, just in case. Sometimes you will end up opening the fridge over and over again before finally going out and eating that cheeseburger you promised to not eat again. Well, it happens with me. By the way, i have a similar pet-theory, but i call it &#8220;The History of Abstraction&#8221;. See you!</p>
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		<title>By: Gorm</title>
		<link>http://blog.demring.com/2008/05/15/ive-become-some-kind-of-a-platonist/#comment-747</link>
		<dc:creator>Gorm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 14:31:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gorm.wordpress.com/?p=381#comment-747</guid>
		<description>Thank you. But I don't approve of your rendering of my view: It is &lt;em&gt;virtuality&lt;/em&gt; which is the subjective construct, not reality. This is a very important distinction to make, to avoid falling into an absurdly idealist position.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you. But I don&#8217;t approve of your rendering of my view: It is <em>virtuality</em> which is the subjective construct, not reality. This is a very important distinction to make, to avoid falling into an absurdly idealist position.</p>
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		<title>By: Posthumanist</title>
		<link>http://blog.demring.com/2008/05/15/ive-become-some-kind-of-a-platonist/#comment-740</link>
		<dc:creator>Posthumanist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 21:25:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gorm.wordpress.com/?p=381#comment-740</guid>
		<description>Seems about right. Reality is an ever-changing subjective construct courtesy of each individual brain and sensory apparatus. 

Interesting blog, by the way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seems about right. Reality is an ever-changing subjective construct courtesy of each individual brain and sensory apparatus. </p>
<p>Interesting blog, by the way.</p>
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